Travel cage match: Santiago, Chile vs. Buenos Aires, Argentina (part 2: Drink)

2 cities enter.  One city leaves.

Will it be Santiago, Chile – the home of enormous mayo covered hot dogs and some of the most impressive mountain views anywhere in the world?

Santiago Mountains image

or

Will it be Buenos Aires, Argentina -where you can (and more or less have to) eat steak 5+ times a week?

Buenos Aires City image

We spent 6 months researching–4.5 months in Buenos Aires and 1.5 months in Santiago–in an attempt to answer this frequently asked and extremely difficult question:  If you’re headed to the Southern Cone, which of these 2 great cities should you prioritize?

Last week we covered the food category and while Santiago had a strong showing and was far and away the winner on diversity of food options, we declared Buenos Aires the winner for the Food category overall – they may have limited menu options, but damn do they do them well.  Check out the full review of Buenos Aires vs. Santiago food.

We’re ready to move on.  Today’s category is…

2. Drink

This category is almost as important as food and despite bottles and bottles of intensive research, it is very difficult to declare a winner.  Let’s start with wine.

Category 1)  Wine:  Winner – Buenos Aires/Argentina  (though these are 2 of the best countries in the world to drink wine)

This is not really a Santiago vs. Buenos Aires thing, but rather a Chile vs. Argentina thing.  Both Argentina and Chile are deservedly proud of their wine traditions and more and more, they are gaining attention internationally for the quality of the wines they produce.  Both are pretty damn good and we had a rather fantastic (though for some reason, difficult to remember) time researching this category 🙂  By the way, if you are in Buenos Aires and like wine, you should do a wine tasting with Anuva – check out our original review on them for details:  Review of Anuva Wine tasting in Buenos Aires: Do it, you’ll thank us

Argentine wine tasting research with Anuva image

We like research

In both countries, most wine is grown right along the Andes with the largest regions being almost directly across the mountains from one another (Mendoza, Argentina and the many regions surrounding Santiago).  After visiting wineries in both of these regions and doing some additional research (Jen had to write a report for Spanish class on something…), we learned that while the regions are quite close geographically, being east vs. west of the mountains actually leads to some pretty significant differences in grape growing conditions – one of the largest differences being that on the Argentina side, the climate is quite a bit drier.  This and other differences lead to different types of grapes being better suited to one side vs. the other.  It’s why Argentina dominates global Malbec productions and is one of the only regions in the world to produces Torrontes and why Chile tends to export a broader array of both red and white varietals including the Carmenere which is largely exclusive to Chile.  Before we get into our sub-sub-category ratings, let’s start with some context on both regions.

Context

Argentine Wine Industry:

Argentina is currently the world’s 5th largest wine producer.  The vast majority of the wine produced in Argentina stays in Argentina – currently only somewhere between 20% and 30% is exported.  Up until the 1970s, Argentina produced more wine than pretty much any other country in the world.  They were apparently producing 22 tons per acre whereas most quality wine regions in France and California at the time were only producing ~2-5 tons per acre.  How did they do it?  Three words:

1)  Super

2)  low

3)  quality

Everyone used to have a big jug that they would go fill up every couple of days in the middle of town at a big wine keg type thing.  It was called “vino de mesa,” or “table wine.”  Back then, Argentines were drinking more wine per capita than any other country in the world (seriously, they were drinking something like 24 gallons/year/person on average vs. less than 1 gallon/person in countries like the US and UK), but virtually none of it was exported because, you know, it sucked.

It wasn’t until the 1990s that international wine experts started taking a closer look at Argentina.  After seeing the soil conditions, the lack of humidity, the lack of pests and the altitude, there began to be a lot of talk about the incredible potential Argentina had to produce top quality premium wines.  Slowly over the last couple of decades more and more of the industry has changed their practices away from mass produced low quality table wine to export-ready premium wine.  This has been largely driven by foreign investment.  When we were in Mendoza, we were told that back in 2002-2003 after the most recent Argentine economic collapse, there was an average of something like 3 new wineries opening every day as foreigners took advantage of low prices and saw an opportunity to make great wine.  This process still has a long way to go as they still only export a small fraction of the wine produced, but I think we can expect to see more and more Argentine wines in the international market in the years to come.  It is also worth noting, that the days of jug-wine are for the most part gone in Argentina and now even most of the wine produced for domestic consumption is quite high quality.

Bad Argentine jug wine

That said, we did experience some pretty bad jug wine up in Salta

Chilean Wine Industry:

Chile produces only a little more than half of the total wine that Argentina does and drinks only a small fraction of the wine that they produce; they export the rest.  In fact, they export 70+% of the wine that they produce which, despite the relatively small size and population of the country, makes them the 5th largest wine exporting country in the world (under France, Italy and Australia – Argentina is #8 at about 63% of the export volume of Chile).  It wasn’t always this way.  Similar to Argentina, the wine industry in Chile largely produced low quality wines for domestic consumption up until the 1980s.   Once they solved some political and economic issues, they recognized that they had the potential to turn wine into a big business, and they did.  Starting back in the 80s, they began using modern wine techniques from around the world and geared up their wineries to start producing great quality wines designed primarily for export.  They rapidly climbed the export rankings and continue to be one of the biggest exporters in the world.

You may have seen our earlier post on our visit to the Concha y Toro winery in Santiago – it’s the largest winery in Latin America and the 8th largest in the world.

Concha y toro wines image

You may recognize these labels... they are sold all over the world

Why am I telling you all of this?

I’m not sure really.  The important thing to remember is this… Chile is big in the business of exporting wine and Argentina is big on the tradition of making and drinking wine.  They both make great wine, but this context leads to some different outcomes.

Enough information, onto our totally subjective opinions…

Sub-category 1)  White wine – Winner: Chile (by a lot)

Argentina: Our experience was that Argentina focuses far more on red wine, and while we did find one Chardonnay that we liked, the vast majority of the whites that we tried there we thought were terrible.  Obviously this is subjective, but I’ve yet to hear anyone rave about a white Argentine wine nor have I ever seen one for sale in the US – if you have a different opinion, please let us know.  There is an exception to this… Northwestern Argentina is quite proud of their own unique white varietal known as Torrontes.  Many people talk it up as being a fantastic alternative to the more traditional varietals and the Argentines from the region (Salta) beam with pride whenever it is discussed.  We wanted to like Torrontes.  We really did.  Sadly, we could not.  After tasting several versions of it at a few of the wineries in Cafayate, the best way we can describe it is that it smells like very sweet dessert wine, yet somehow tastes like water.  It’s not that it’s bad, it’s just that it’s not good.

Chile: Chile has fantastic white wines.  Virtually every white that we tried there we thought was excellent and if you are ever staring at the 100s of bottles of wine in a liquor store wondering what Chardonnay to buy, your odds of picking a good one are pretty good if you grab pretty much anything from Chile.

Sub-category 2)  Red wine – Winner: Too close to call

This is too close to call.  They both have fantastic red wines.  Some of the Malbecs from Argentina are absolutely amazing (others taste like kool-aid) and Chile has some fantastic big Cabs, Syrahs and others.  We are going to take a pass on this one.  Suffice to say, you can acquire fantastic red wine in either country.

Argentine Wine tasting picture image

This is just a random yet classy picture of wine glasses that I thought fit well here

The difference is in how much you have to pay for it, which leads us to the next category…

Sub-category 3)  Value for $ – Winner: Argentina

Value for the money is a pretty important dimension in determining what wine you’ll actually be able to try wherever you go and a big part of the reason why I provided so much context on the histories of the wine industries in each country up front.

Chile: Prices in general are a bit higher in Chile than Argentina for pretty much everything at the moment (though, with ~30% inflation per year, Argentina is rapidly catching up – until the next economic crisis).  The difference in wine prices is remarkable.  The reason for this is that Chilean wine is for the most part produced for export and priced at export pricing levels – we often saw the same bottles of Chilean wine that we’d bought here in the US for sale in Chile at the same or higher prices.  It’s not that it’s super expensive, it’s just that it’s internationally priced.  Argentina is different.

Argentina: Argentina exports only a small fraction of their wine and that wine is often labels that aren’t even sold domestically, so when you go to buy wine in Argentina, you are confronted with prices that were designed entirely for the local, relatively low-income, wine-loving market.  The vast majority of the wines in any store are priced at AR$15-30 which is US$3-7.  The staple wine that we drank all the time in Buenos Aires literally cost ~US$4/bottle.  That wine was awesome, and a bottle of that quality would easily cost $15-20 in the US (or Chile for that matter).  The value got even better if you were willing to spend a little bit more… we took back with us a few extremely expensive (on Argentine standards) bottles of wine that are easily some of the best wine we’ve ever had (and when we were consultants, people used to give us some pretty fancy wine from time to time!) – these super expensive bottles cost ~US$20, I’d put them in the ~US$100 range for something of similar quality here in the US.  Another great thing is that it’s easy to experiment with different high-end bottles in restaurants as the mark-up tended to be only 10-20% over store prices vs. the 2-3x mark-up that is common in the US (Chile also had a high restaurant mark-up).

Awesome Argentine Wine image

So good AND so cheap! Just look how happy we are.

On value for $, Argentina is impossible to beat.

Sub-category 4)  Variety of new wines to try in-country: Argentina

There is no question that Chile has great wines, but because they export so much of their wine, the wines that you’ll see in Santiago are pretty much the exact same wines that you’ll see in the Chilean section of a wine store in the US.  I’m sure that there are wines that you have to be in the country to experience, but in general, you can sample most of the Chilean wines from pretty much anywhere in the world.

On the flip-side, the vast majority of Argentine wines are currently impossible to purchase outside of the country.  You can be certain that a trip to Buenos Aires will expose you to an awesome variety of wines that you’ve never seen before.

Category 2)  National drink:  Winner – Santiago (by miles and miles)

Chile: Chile’s national drink (other than Nescafe) is the Pisco Sour.  It’s made from Pisco which is a grape based liquor and varying forms of sour mix.  Often there is egg white put on top, but the Chilean version usually skips that part.  It’s important to note that Pisco Sours are also very popular in other parts of Latin America (most notably Peru), but the Chilean version is their own.  The Pisco sour has the remarkable quality of tasting almost non-alcoholic – kind of like lemonade – yet having the ability to absolutely knock you on your ass in a very short period of time.  They vary in alcohol content depending on the type of Pisco used, but at one venue we had one drink each at around 5pm and were not able to walk straight again for about 4 hours.  The girl we were with threw up upon walking out of the bar.  After one drink.  Three hours later, we still wished that we had thrown up wih her.  They are dangerous, but we love Pisco Sours.

Pisco Sours in Santiago image

Pisco Sours make us happy

Argentina: Buenos Aires has an obsession with a very special kind of liquor called Fernet.  It’s made out of grapes and a variety of spices.  It’s often mixed with Coca Cola.  We tried a Fernet and Coke one time while in Buenos Aires.  Despite the fact that it was mixed with a fair amount of Coca Cola we could not drink more than a few sips.  It was without question the worst tasting thing we have ever put in our mouths.  This is of course subjective; there are many, many people that claim to love this drink – we suspect this is merely a form of hazing.

Fernet image

Fernet makes us sad

Category 3)  Coffee:  Winner – Buenos Aires (unless you are looking for a little something extra with your coffee..)

It may seem odd to have a category devoted to coffee, but the coffee/cafe cultures in these two cities are so remarkably different, we thought it was worth mentioning.  For us, we preferred the leisurely cafe experiences in Buenos Aires, but to each their own as these are very, very different.   Here’s the deal…

Buenos Aires: Cafes are a big deal in Buenos Aires.  The strong Italian roots of the city are likely the reason behind the strength of the cafe culture.  There are usually several cafes on every block and for the most part, they all serve fresh ground, strong and quite tasty coffee.  The standard ‘cafe’ is actually what we would call an espresso shot in the US, but there are several variations involving more or less amounts of milk (e.g., cafe con leche, cortado, lagrima).  It’s all good.  Pretty much any cafe you go to will serve some cookies and a glass of water with every coffee you order.  The locals spend lots of time hanging out in cafes sipping their espresso and reading the news.  There is no such thing as a to-go cup… when you’re going to have coffee in Buenos Aires, you are going to sit down and drink it for as long as it takes.  That’s just how it’s done.   Coffee is a big part of the culture here and a good deal of pride is taken not only in producing top quality drinks, but also in providing a great cafe experience.  If you’re in a hurry, it can be pretty difficult to get a quick cup of caffeine in this city, but then again we found that we were rarely in a hurry in BsAs.

Buenos Aires Cafe image

Coffee, cookies and water

Santiago: The cafe culture is very different in Santiago.  There are 3 main differences:  Experience, quality and legs.

1)  Experience:  There are still many cafes, but for the most part they are designed for getting a quick cup of coffee rather than as places to leisurely hang out for a couple of hours.  In fact, a large percentage of the cafes downtown don’t even have seating… everyone just quickly drinks their coffee while standing at a bar.  We found that getting coffee was typically a 10 minute experience.  This is not really better or worse than the BsAs style, just different.  On top of that though, we also found that many of the cafes were favorite destinations of smokers and sometimes there was so much smoke billowing out of them that we couldn’t breathe.  Starbucks is actually doing quite well in Santiago and many of the people we talked to suggested that a big part of their success might be that they are one of the few non-smoking cafes.

Stand-up coffee bars in Santiago image

Stand-up coffee bar

2)  Quality of coffee:  For various historical reasons which we never quite fully understood, Chile has a national obsession with Nescafe instant coffee.  Upon ordering coffee, the default offering you will get even in a fancy hotel or restaurant will be an empty cup and a plastic single-serve container of Nescafe.  After which, they will offer to fill your cup with either hot water or hot milk.  While instant coffee can be convenient when you need some coffee and don’t have any alternatives, it seems odd to order coffee in a coffee shop and get it.  To be clear, you can definitely order an espresso drink if you’re in the right kind of place, it’s just not the standard-Nescafe is everywhere.

3)  Legs:  We covered the Coffee with Legs/Cafe con piernas phenomenon at length in a previous post (see it here:  Cafe con piernas = coffee with legs).  Coffee shops that are part strip club or even brothel are not representative of the coffee culture in Santiago, but are certainly a significant part of it.  If you are into this, then the incredible number and variety of cafe con piernas establishments in downtown Santiago may well trump all of the other drink categories and make Santiago the city for you.

coffee with legs cafe rio santiago image

Ah the memories...

Overall winner for best Drink:  Buenos Aires (barely)

There is plenty of good drinking to be done in both cities.  If you’re all about trying new red wines that are really cheap and good you should prioritize Buenos Aires.  If you prefer white wine, go Chile.  If you like drinking gasoline, go to Buenos Aires and try some Fernet.  It really depends on you.  We happen to love red wine and were blown away by the incredible value we got in BsAs on awesome wine, so despite how much we miss Pisco Sours, we’re going to award this category to Buenos Aires by a slim margin.  We can’t declare a strong overall winner in this category, but hopefully we’ve at least given you some good context to draw your own conclusions.

Quick recap on the cage match thus far…

Round 1)  Food – Buenos Aires came out strong and won round 1 with best overall food despite Santiago’s superior variety

Round 2)  Drink – Buenos Aires barely edged out Santiago driven by the incredible value for your money on unique red wines

So far Buenos Aires has Santiago on the ropes, but the first two categories have definitely played to Buenos Aires strengths, so we expect big things from Santiago in the coming rounds. Next week, we’ll get into round 3 and tackle the issue of which of these two cities would be more attractive to live in as an expat.

Do you agree or disagree?  Let us know what you think!

Disclaimer:  Keep in mind these are just our opinions based on our personal experiences and we’re very happy to have people disagree as this is quite subjective – if you do disagree, please speak up and tell us why!

CPTJMIY: Kevin Friedman on OfertaSimple and living life as a pirate

It’s been awhile since our last installment of Crazy People That Just Might Inspire You, but if there’s one thing you can count on in life it’s that there are always more crazy people out there.  We think you’ll agree that today’s Crazy Person, Kevin Friedman, is crazy in ways that sound pretty fun.

We originally met Kevin through some mutual friends in San Francisco awhile back.  He’s got an MBA from one of the best business schools and some might even say a somewhat conservative early career in banking, but somewhere along the way he chose a more unconventional path.  When we met him he had  already left the corporate world behind and was engaged in at least a few unconventional and interesting businesses (more to come on these); now, somehow he’s heading up a business in Buenos Aires and other parts of LATAM called OfertaSimple while still living in San Francisco – obviously we had to find out more.  Let’s do this.

Kevin Friedman, the interview

Kevin, before we get started, tell us where in the world you are answering these questions?

At the back table in Jovino on Union Street in San Francisco.

When people ask you what you do for a living, how do you respond?

I usually lie through my teeth and make up the job du jour.  I guess I’m a little bit sensitive that I fill ATMs with twenties for a living.

Fair enough.  Other than filling ATMS, what are your primary motivations/inspirations in life?

I had a list of 30+ inspirational people from a few years ago… except Tiger Woods was on the top of that list.  So I’ve learned to admire specific characteristics of some notable people, but I look to my parents, my fiancée and a few close friends for real inspiration.

Before we get into your current project at OfertaSimple, tell us a little more about your background…

We understand that you are “The man behind the man” at MisterArcher.com…   What does this mean?  What is MisterArcher and what do you do there?

Mister Archer is my nom de plume for a bon vivant gallivanting around San Francisco exposing the unique and under-appreciated.  The motto is “Inspirations for your Explorations” and we share the ideas that are worthy through a members-only newsletter (sign up at MisterArcher.com).

That is a lot of fancy words in a row!  How/why did you get involved with MisterArcher?

I started Mister Archer to fight off my inner-couch potato.

We also understand that you started TValacarte.org in a campaign to take down Comcast… what’s that all about?

Does anyone believe that paying $150/month to watch a dozen or so channels is a good deal?  My frustration boiled over about a year and a half ago when I realized that Comcast’s strangehold on cable choked off the competition.  I believe if we can aggregate our demand and coordinate a movement away from Big Cable, we will ultimately be rewarded with cost-effective, high-quality programming.  Of course, if you prefer channel surfing through 300 channels in order to develop the strongest thumb muscles on the block, then you’re probably better off with the status quo.

Nice Time write-up about it by the way, how did you manage to get them to pick it up?

The Time write-up happened organically.  The author, Brad Tuttle, saw one of my comments on another related story about the cable industry, then he followed up directly with me.

Ok, let’s hear about this OfertaSimple thing…

Give us the pitch, what are you doing down in South America?

I’m running away from the United States economy (half-kidding).  America is flat-lining… while much needed reforms (patent, immigration, tax) are stuck in a rubber room due to partisanship.  On the other hand, emerging markets are implementing thoughtful policies and programs improving their GDP.  I thought it would be a great opportunity to try and launch an international business.

What is OfertaSimple?

OfertaSimple.com.ar is an online service that connects consumers with local businesses. The OfertaSimple business is based on the “collective buying power” concept that has now proved successful throughout the world. Every day, OfertaSimple features an exclusive deal with one local business in each city where we operate. Local businesses benefit from customer acquisition without having to pay an upfront cost. Consumers love the huge discounts and the sensation of discovering local businesses.

Who should be interested in this site?

Some would think that our core customer is the bargain shopper.  In fact, our most loyal customers are working professionals short on time, but excited to experience new spots in the City.  Time is their most important resource.  In the time it takes to cream and sugar their morning coffee, we provide them with a recommendation of a new spot to check out.  And we require that the business provide a 40% – 90% off discount as a reward for our customers for trying out something new.

Can you give us some examples of recent deals?

Sure.  We’ve offered a great range of deals like over 60% off sushi libre at Aires de Geisha in Palermo Soho to 75% off a parapente flight.  Although we are getting some cool spots approaching us to run deals for them, we’re still finding the best deals through our sales team and member recommendations.

How’s business going?

Overall, the business is going swimmingly.  We’ve been fortunate to have hired some tremendous employees for roles ranging from sales to marketing and customer service.  Our country manager, Eugenia, is the glue to the team.  She rocks!

There are a few other competitors who have also recently entered the marketplace, including Groupon.  But I believe there will still be room for them since someone who buys a deal on our site, might also find a few other deals attractive on their site.  Ultimately, these purchases are not mutually exclusive.

How did you get involved?

I got involved with OfertaSimple by buying the website domain.  The rest of the founding team has been living in LatAm for the past 7 years.  We drew straws to determine our responsibilities and I ended up with the CTO short-straw.

Anything else we should know about OfertaSimple?

We are looking to build an OfertaSimple mobile app for Blackberries and iPhone.  Interested app developers, please drop me a line at kevin@ofertasimple.com.

Back to you for a minute…

Were you always off doing crazy things?  When was the last time you had what most people would consider to be a ‘real’ job?

It’s been a while.  I’ve actually been trying to get a part-time job as a sports consultant.  For example, I’d love to share some zany brainstorms with the SF Giants… like bottom of the 9th, Giants are tied with one out and a runner on third base.  The other team hits a deep fly ball… definitely deep enough for the runner to tag.  Typically, the left fielder catches the ball then throws home late while the winning run scores.  Instead, the left fielder should intentionally bobble the ball, as if they are a volleyball setter while moving towards home plate.  They wouldn’t control the ball until they were within range to throw the runner out at home.  It might be tough to execute, but even if there’s a 1% chance of success better than 100% certainty of losing.  These ideas are not available to the L.A. Trolley Dodgers.

What was your last ‘real’ job and why did you leave it?

My last real job was working in Corporate Strategy for Roost.com.  I enjoyed working there and we had a strong executive team, but I decided to leave right after we raised an $8mm series B round.  My passion was to launch our rentals product, but with the real estate market upside-down, we decided to focus on the core search technology.

Would you ever go back to that kind of work environment?

Certainly.  Although I’ve opted for the pirate’s life, I do miss the security of a steady salary.  But what I miss most is the office cooler conversations.  I haven’t heard a good joke in months because it simply isn’t the same chatting with the team through a skype window or on IM.

I can definitely relate to that!  Maybe we should create an online virtual water cooler…  Sorry, back to the interview: Was it scary when you first started off on your own?   Anything you would do differently in retrospect?

Not only was it scary… it still is scary.  I still have doubts enter my mind during some weak moments in the wee hours of the morning.  A little stress might help to motivate, but a lot of stress is counter-productive.  But I’ve been lucky to have a strong support network with my founding team, my close friends and my fiancée.  (Yup, I know how to type accents over vowels.)  I am also heartened by the inspirational Marianne Williamson quote about “playing small does not serve the world.”  Touché.

I am impressed by your vowel accenting – a key skill for the success any international business.  Any advice for people who are reading this from a cubicle at a job they don’t love wishing they could get out there and pursue their passions?

I don’t think I’ve earned the right to share unsolicited advice to others yet.  But, I will share a quote from Charles Swindoll that stays top of mind.

“The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company… a church… a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past… we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you… we are in charge of our Attitudes.”

Thanks Kevin, good luck with OfertaSimple.com.ar!

THANK YOU, Ryan and Jen!  It’s been a pleasure to meet you both and I sincerely hope your journey inspires others to explore the world and pursue their ventures.

Interview post-mortem

This is craziness at it’s best.  I always have tremendous respect for anyone who risks failure to pursue their passions and Kevin is a great example of someone who is doing just that.  On more of a side note, I also think the idea of starting a business that focuses on international markets without necessarily having to relocate yourself is pretty novel.  I continue to be surprised by just how many different possibilities there are out there… rather than the 3-5 life/career options that most people think they have (e.g., stick with current job, look for other job in same industry, go get an advanced degree, etc.), in reality there are an infinite number of options – often they require risk, but if you know you aren’t ever going to be truly happy doing what you’re doing today and there is some possibility that you will be if you take the leap, the odds seem pretty good.  I heard a story recently of a guy that left his 10+ year successful business career to become a professional golf caddy… it’s been a few years now and he absolutely LOVES it.  Pretty cool if you ask me.

Thanks again for the inspiration Kevin.  If anyone out there knows other crazy people we should be talking to, please let us know!

Rehab phase 1 is almost complete; Phase 2 is coming

Today is our last day in Chile. Tomorrow we return to Argentina. Next week we return to the US.

Phase 1 of rehab has been intense

We have been unemployed and in South America for almost exactly 6 months now.

For 6 months we have had no deadlines and no responsibilities.

We’ve had neither cellphone nor blackberry and we’ve tried to exclusively spend our time doing things that we want to do rather than things that we were supposed to do. For instance, look how long it’s been since I last got a haircut:

I need a haircut image

Luckily, I'm getting a haircut later this week

We’ve slept for as many hours as we chose to every night (except for the damn 4am geyser tour in Atacama).

Geysers de tatio image

Stupid geysers. Stupid 4am. Stupid, stupid.

We’ve taken lots of daytime naps, we’ve enjoyed bottles of wine for lunch and we’ve consumed more steak then we had eaten in the previous 10 years combined.

Dinner in Buenos Aires: Perfectly cooked Argentine beef image

And we'd do it again

At times, we’ve seen amazing landscapes. At times, we’ve sat on park benches and watched dogs play for hours. At times, we’ve sat on benches and had people try to steal Jen’s purse – that was entertaining.

We’ve read lots of books. We’ve tried to read many Spanish newspapers. This has gone poorly.

We’ve lived in 2 countries and immersed ourselves in their cultures- Argentina for 4.5 months and Chile for 1.5 months. We are happy to help you plan your trips.

We’ve sat in cafes for hours – in the beginning we had lots to talk about… later we just stared at each other… then we started bringing books… then we ran out of books… Now we don’t go to cafes so much.

Each of these things has been a critical part of our rehabilitation. By completely removing ourselves from our old environment and the associated pressures/peers/challenges, we were forced to gain perspective. We were humbled on a daily basis. It was annoying.

Through immersing ourselves in foreign cultures in which nothing is expected of us and no one cares about our resumes or has a vested interest in what we do next, we found perspective on who we had been and on who we want to be. At times it was freeing, at times it was frustrating – both are part of the process.

Through meeting people on the road (both travelers and locals) our perspective on what life can look like and the sheer number of different possibilities that exist and can lead to happiness has expanded immensely. As has our definition of happiness-now we think it requires frequent napping.

Finding this perspective was the goal of rehab phase 1. This isn’t the end. We don’t have any answers, but this new and broader perspective will serve as the foundation for phase 2.

Rehab phase 2:  Re-entry / where we go from here

Next week we will fly back to the US and begin phase 2. We are not sad to return, we are excited to start a new chapter of this adventure. It’s like a choose your own adventure book, except written for adults instead of 8 year olds.

To say that we are ‘returning’ is not entirely accurate… we don’t have a specific home to return to. We have a storage unit full of stuff in San Francisco and a car in Seattle. We have no jobs and no place to live that is our own. And, due to poor/rushed planning all of our other clothes are in that storage unit, so we will have to continue wearing the same 5 outfits that we have been wearing for the last 6 months even though all of our sweaters and socks have holes in them. This should make a strong impression in job interviews.

We won’t be picking up where we left off, we will be starting fresh in a new city. We are planning to live in Seattle for a variety of reasons. It will likely rain a lot, but also be much cheaper.

The prospect of starting fresh is a little intimidating at times, but with our newly broadened perspective, we are excited to construct lives that offer us balance. We don’t know what it will look like exactly. From a distance, it might look like a dancing penguin. No one knows. That’s what makes it exciting.

dancing penguin image

Let's hope that it doesn't look like this dancing penguin

Jen is looking for a ‘real’ job. I plan to pursue a number of entrepreneurial projects that I have been toying with for some time. In both cases, we will only consider things that we think we will genuinely enjoy. We have already accumulated plenty of option value in our careers and are ready to cash in and find things we love. The evil mongeese can suck it.

We’d like to have a dog. And we’d like to have lives that allow us to keep the dog alive. We suspect that the dog will appreciate this as well.

We plan to have hobbies outside of work. We’ve heard that this is possible. Jen would like to teach English as a foreign language in the evenings. I’m excited to return to improv comedy. Maybe we’ll even do something athletic–fear not, we pledge to continue drinking enough wine to keep ourselves firmly out of shape.

We believe that we are ready for phase 2, but re-entry comes with a number of risks. We need to be ever-vigilant for any signs of relapse.

Signs that we might be relapsing:

If any of the following occur, we may need to buy plane tickets or at least some steak…

  1. We don’t actively pursue hobbies
  2. We eat take-out dinners more than twice a week
  3. We have more than 3 days in a row of unhappiness at work (a couple of days can happen anywhere from time to time – at 3, we torch the place)
  4. More than 50% of the friends that we spend time with on a regular basis have MBAs
  5. We spend more than 10% of our social interactions complaining about our jobs
  6. We eat lunch while still typing
  7. The idea of getting a dog dies due to impracticalities of work schedule
  8. The dog itself dies due to neglect
  9. Multiple instances of cancelling social events occurs due to last-minute work conflicts
  10. We check emails on our phone while mid-conversation with others
  11. We don’t manage to leave the country at least twice a year
  12. We achieve Starwood platinum status (and are proud of it)

There are almost certainly others. We will need your help to avoid relapsing. That is why we absolutely plan to continue this blog. It will become less about South America (though there are still tons of topics we’ve been meaning to write about on Chile/Argentina and still plan to), and more about Seattle and our re-entry.

We hope to be an example not just of a couple that left our jobs to travel for 6 months, but one that also made a successful return to our careers and are better off than we were before we left.

Stay tuned.

Any other relapse warning signs you can think of that we should watch out for??

CPTJMIY: Gordon Jack on getting the government to pay for your travel adventures

Last week on Crazy People That Just Might Inspire You (CPTJMIY), we featured Crazy Person Dave Kovac on his involvement with Habitat for Humanity Global Village and how he manages to make his passion for travelling the world and helping people a regular part of his life.  Hopefully, many of you were inspired (if not, let me know and I’ll tell Dave to try to be crazier in the future).

Dave’s success in setting his life up in a way that allows him to balance his passions with his commitments/responsibilities on an ongoing basis is pretty awesome.  What’s perhaps even more awesome is that his is only one of thousands of ways to do this.  If you spend most of your time in an office you likely don’t hear much about all of these less-conventional lifestyles that are out there–it’s not because they aren’t out there, it’s because the people that are living them are not spending much time hanging out in your office (also, conversely, the people that are in the office with you all the time are unlikely to be promoting unconventional lifestyles).  That’s what CPTJMIY is here for.

Diversity is abundant when it comes to Crazy People.  This week’s Crazy Person is Gordon Jack; he represents a whole different flavor of crazy.

Some background on Gordon

We met Gordon in Buenos Aires at an intercambio event at our Spanish school back in ~April.  For those that aren’t familiar with the term ‘intercambio,’ in this context it’s meant to be a gathering of native Spanish speakers interested in learning English, with native English speakers interested in learning Spanish.  You get together, drink some wine and talk half in English and half in Spanish. Perhaps the most notable part of our intercambio experience with Gordon was that there were no native Spanish speakers, so after making each others’ Spanish worse for awhile we just talked to Gordon in English.    We’re glad we did.

Gordon Jack Intercambio image

It was an intercambio just like this one (photo courtesy of Gordon)

We immediately hit it off with Gordon.  Not only is he just a very cool guy; at the time, he was also relatively new to BA and from San Francisco so we had a lot to talk about.  Also, he’s a Crazy Person.  Gordon somehow managed to get the US government to pay for a ~6 month trip to Buenos Aires for him and his family; sadly, we did not.  Intrigued?  Would you like to get the US government to pay for an incredible international adventure for you?  We thought so.  Let’s find out how this works.

Gordon Jack: The interview

Let’s start with some basics…

Gordon, give us some background… what is your career back home?

I am a high school English teacher.

Why do you do it and how long have you been doing it?

Most teachers would say they want to save the world by educating young people to be caring and responsible citizens.  That’s kinda true for me.  Initially, I took the job because I wanted extended vacations. After working in advertising for four years, I needed more than a two-weeks off a year.

Have you done any long-term travel like this in the past?  If so, where/why?

I’ve never enjoyed vacations that involve a lot of traveling.  What I like to do is repeat my routine in a foreign country. That way, I experience both normalcy and abnormality at the same time.  It makes the craziness comfortable (or the comfort crazy, I haven’t decided which.)

As a sophomore in high school, I lived for a summer with a family in Oaxaca, Mexico.  My sophomore year in college I studied abroad in Lugano, Switzerland for a semester.  After quitting my advertising job, I lived in Granada, Spain for two years.  I also worked for a year in Santiago, Chile at the international school there.  Given all this time spent in Spanish speaking countries, it’s surprising my Spanish isn’t better than it is.

What do you like about international travel/living?  What motivates you to do it?

I like the challenge of international living.  Every day, you learn something new about the culture or language.  Back home, I wouldn’t spend much time finding the right medicine for constipation.  But in another country, that can be a whole day adventure!

Do you consider yourself to be a Crazy Person?  Do your friends and family?

I don’t think so, but those funny green men in orange suits who live in my sock drawer disagree with me.

Ok, now about this Argentina thing…

How long were you and your family in Argentina?

5 months

Why Argentina?

I spent a long weekend in Buenos Aires when I was working in Santiago, Chile and fell in love with the city.  I love the beauty of the architecture, the life on the streets, the plethora of parks and museums.  There are also incredible things to see outside the city, like the glaciers, waterfalls, vineyards, lakes, cattle ranches, and dinosaur fossils (OK, my seven year old son made me include that last one.)

We heard that you got the government to pay for a big chunk of this trip… How is this possible?  What did you have to do for them in return?  (We’re hoping it involves secret spy stuff)

Well, I sort of spied on their academic institutions, but I didn’t learn any valuable state secrets.  I went to Argentina on a Fulbright scholarship, which paid for most of the trip. Most people, including myself, think that Fulbright grants are reserved for fancy academics but they have some for slobs like me too.  In return for the money, I had create a project that promoted cross-cultural communication between students in Argentina and the United States.

Tell us more about your project

My project involved having U.S. And Argentine students engage in a visual correspondence of photographs to see what could be learned about a different culture. Over the course of three months, the students exchanged photographs which in some way represented their values or beliefs. The challenge was to find a way to represent an abstract idea with a concrete image (they weren’t allowed to put themselves in the photo). Upon receiving the photo, the partner had to interpret the image and then send one back that matched it in some way (through a similar use of line, image, color, etc.) but communicated something unique about him or her. Here is a link with some examples: http://www.slideshare.net/gordonjack/visual-correspondence-project

So what were the results of your project?

The results were mixed.  Not as many students participated as I would have liked, but the students who participated did amazing work that made me look good to the fancy academics.

Would you consider your experience worthwhile?

Definitely.  It was an amazing experience for my family.  We got to spend a lot more time together, which you might think would be disastrous, but it worked out surprisingly well.

Gordon Jack presenting Fulbright image

Here's Gordon presenting a fancy looking chart. Brings back memories. (photo courtesy of Gordon)

Let’s talk Fulbright…

How did you get the idea to apply for a Fulbright scholarship?

I wish I could say it was through months of painstaking research and thoughtful deliberation, but the truth is, I saw an ad in an educational magazine announcing a new Fulbright grant called “The Fulbright Distinguished Awards in Teaching” and decided to apply. When I asked my wife’s permission, she looked at me kind of funny.  “I’m sorry,” she said, shaking her head. “I thought for a second you said you wanted to apply for a Fulbright Distinguished Award in Teaching.”
“I did,” I replied.
“Distinguished?  Really?”
“Why not?”
“Nothing.  Go for it.”
Little did she realize what a misnomer the program’s title was.

Can just anyone apply (age/expertise/education/etc.)?  How do you qualify?

You need some teaching experience.  Here’s the website for anyone who’s interested: http://www.fulbrightteacherexchange.org/dteIndex.cfm

What kinds of projects can you do?  Any good examples of other projects you are familiar with?

Like I said, the goal of the projects is to promote cross-cultural understanding and dialogue.  My project involved a visual correspondence of self-portrait photographs between Argentine and U.S. students.  Another Fulbrighter in Argentina was studying traditional folkloric music to teach to her students in the U.S.

What percent of your time were you focused on your project vs. enjoying your trip?

The nice part of about the scholarship was that it allowed for a more balanced time of work and play.  The bureaucracy in Argentina is pretty bad.  As a result, things move much slower there than in the U.S.  The nice part about this was that while I was waiting for my mentor to find me classes to teach and attend, I could go on nice long lunches with my wife.

If you get a scholarship, what does the government provide?

Money and contacts.  We had to find our apartment and our son’s school on our own.

JWFulbright image

J. William Fulbright paid for Gordon's trip, now he wants to pay for your trip

How does the application process work?  How long does it take?  How competitive is it?

I applied in March 2009, was accepted in May of that year and left in February 2010.  I don’t know how many applications the Fulbright organization received.  The program was new so I benefited from fewer people knowing about it.

Any advice for someone interested in applying?

Do it!  It’s great.  I was burning out and now I feel like I’m burning again (in a good way).

Any pros/cons to trying to get this kind of a scholarship to facilitate travel?

Well, there’s the whole work thing.  That could be a pro or a con depending on your point of view.  We could have traveled more if I didn’t have to work on my project.  On the other hand, the project focused my time and made it feel more purposeful.  I feel like I got more out of my experience because I had this particular focus that put me in touch with people I never would have met if I were just traveling.

Now, a little on balancing this with the rest of your life…

Did you have to quit your previous job in order to do this, or was your employer willing to let you go on sabbatical for awhile?

My employer reacted the same way as my wife when I told him I was applying for this grant.  He had to sign a form guaranteeing my job when I returned, which I think he only did because he never thought I would get it.

Any advice for convincing an employer to let someone do something like this?

Play along with other people’s low expectations but don’t let them dissuade you.  When you approach your superintendent with the form, say “This is something I’m never going to get, but would mind signing it anyway?”  Then be sure to act all surprised when they accept you and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. You should also mention that it looks good for the district to have a Fulbright teacher on their staff, even though no one probably cares.

Was it challenging to convince your family to go along?  How did that work out?

My wife was surprisingly game for the adventure and my seven-year-old son wasn’t told about it until we boarded the plane so he didn’t have time to complain.

Any general advice for people looking to find ways to make their passions part of their regular lives?

Well, first you have to find your passion, which can be hard because sometimes it’s buried deep beneath the thousands of emails filling your inbox.  Taking time away from your responsibilities can help you discover what you like to do.  As a teacher, I benefit from having three months a year to do this and it’s helped me understand what makes me happy and what makes me miserable.  Now, I’m trying to focus as much of my time on the happy part and avoid as much as possible the miserable part, which is also hard because no one pays you to be happy.  They only pay you to be miserable.

Gordon Fulbright Argentine trip image

Gordon getting paid by the government to happily take a nap with an Argentine horse (photo courtesy of Gordon)

Thanks Gordon!!

You can read more about Gordon and his family’s adventures in Argentina on his very entertaining blog:  http://jackfamilyinba.wordpress.com/

For those of you that aren’t teachers, fear not, you still may be able to hook yourself up with a Fulbright Grant.  They have several programs for people of different backgrounds.  Check out the official site for more details on what grants are out there and how to get more information:  Official Fulbright website If you manage to get one of these, not only does the government pay for an incredible adventure, but it’s super prestigious and according to the Fulbright Wikipedia page, lots of Fulbrighters win Nobel Prizes–those look really good on your resume.

So, to recap:

  1. Government pays for crazy travel adventure
  2. You design your own research project having to do with things that interest you
  3. You get a good balance between living/working in a foreign culture and an amazing long-term vacation
  4. It’s highly prestigious and will very likely help to advance your career rather than looking like a long vacation
  5. You might win a Nobel prize

Sounds like a pretty awesome way to take a career break to us.   We wish our career break had at least one of these five elements (ideally either the government paying for it or the Nobel prize).

Where to eat in Buenos Aires: A few of our favorite BA restaurants

Now that we’re settled into Santiago, it’s time for some reflection on our favorite places to eat in Buenos Aires.  While we may have mentioned from time to time that the food choices in Buenos Aires can be a bit repetitive (cycling through the 5 major food groups), there are definitely some amazing places to eat in the city.  In addition to the things listed in Time Out and on Trip Advisor, we’ve been lucky enough to find a few lesser known restaurants that we think are awesome, and you just happen to be lucky enough that we’re willing to share them with you!

Note: We’ve indicated the price we usually pay for the two of us, typically including wine (we like wine) and either an appetizer or dessert; we’ve noted exceptions.  Take these as rough estimates, not absolutes.

  • El Estrebe: If you’ve followed our blog, you know that we LOVE El Estrebe.  We found it around the corner from our apt. in Recoleta and noticed that it was always packed (after 9pm anyway – don’t dare try to go to dinner before then in Argentina).  They also have a couple of fabulous wines for around AR35-40 (that’s US$10) by bodega Viñas de Narvaez, on the first page of the wine menu (our faves are the malbec and the syrah).  Read our review here and our photo essay here, but suffice to say that this is probably the one restaurant we’ll miss the most when (or if) we go back to the US.
    • Neighborhood: Recoleta
    • Cuisine: Parrilla
    • Price: ~AR 200 – we usually share a steak since they’re massive (see below) but have 2 appetizers, dessert and a bottle of wine
    • Best for: Dinner

      Dinner in Buenos Aires: Perfectly cooked Argentine beef image

      Incredible bife de lomo from El Estrebe

  • Don Julio: Another great parrilla, this one located in Palermo.  It’s a classic, and classy,  kind of place – great service, great wine list, fabulous meats.  Another parrilla in the neighborhood is really popular with tourists (La Cabrera) but we think this is much better.  Try the Flecha de los Andes malbec – awesome.
    • Neighborhood: Palermo Soho
    • Cuisine: Parrilla
    • Price: ~AR250-300 (the above-mentioned wine is ~AR100, bumping our total up a bit)
    • Best for: Dinner

      Don Julio image

      Us with our favorite bottle of wine at Don Julio (yes, we know we look like we've had too much)- sometimes they'll let you sign it and they'll put it up on the wall

  • Dada: This one is a bistro located in centro, near Florida street.  The space is a little funky and casual with only about 10 tables, plus a bar.  They have amazing beef dishes (the ojo de bife is our favorite – amazingly flavorful – they actually appear to use seasoning it which doesn’t happen much in Buenos Aires and may be considered cheating…) but also a bunch of other good stuff, including a langostine risotto.  Smaller menu than most places, which we’ve found to mean that they do all of it well, rather than much of it poorly.  Call ahead for reservation, especially if you’re going on the weekend.
    • Neighborhood: Microcentro
    • Cuisine: French bistro
    • Price: AR250
    • Best for: Lunch, dinner

      Dada Buenos Aires image

      Funky, low-key place with amazing food!

  • Pizza Piola: Trendy environment, often playing techno or other clubbish music, and really good thin crust pizza – not only the typical Buenos Aires pizzas, but more creative modern cuisine style as well (think California Pizza Kitchen, but better).  Two of our favorites are the Carbonara and the Avandaro.  Best to get a reservation Thurs/Fri/Sat.
    • Neighborhood: Barrio Norte
    • Cuisine: Pizza
    • Price:  ~AR120 (~AR50 for a large pizza, AR20-30 for a small)
    • Best for: Lunch, dinner

      Pizza Piola image

      Thin crust, proscutto, brie and arugula - yes!!!

  • Pizza y Espuma:  If you want a good set lunch with pasta or a simple pizza, this is a good bet.  We stumbled across this place on our walk home from Spanish school – they have a couple of locations, including Palermo Viejo and Recoleta.  They also have pretty much the only white wine in all of Argentina that we really like, and it’s their house wine – San Felipe.  It comes in a funny short, fat bottle, and you can sometimes find it in the grocery store too.
    • Neighborhood: Recoleta, Palermo Viejo, others
    • Cuisine: Pizza and pasta
    • Price: AR80-100 (lunch price; variance based on whether we order wine or not – we highly recommend a bottle of wine for lunch)
    • Best for: Lunch (good fixed menu options)

      Pizza y Espuma Palermo Viejo image

      Location in Palermo Viejo - 2 levels, with plenty of TVs for football (and we think a rooftop deck too)

  • Cumana: This is a Buenos Aires institution that draws tons of locals and tourists alike.  They’re famous for their empanadas and cazuelas (stews/soups), and also happens to be the site of my unfortunate run-in with mondongo.  As such, we love their empanadas and some of their stews, but just be careful what you order.  There’s often a line out the door for this place during the lunch rush or dinnertime, but we’ve had better luck with a late lunch, around 2ish.
    • Neighborhood: Recoleta
    • Cuisine: Traditional Argentine
    • Price: AR100 or less
    • Best for: Lunch, dinner

      Cumana restaurant image

      Cumana (in Recoleta) sometimes has a line down the street of locals and tourists alike waiting to get in

  • La Morada: Not exactly the greatest ambiance, but this is our go-to empanada delivery place.  They have carne suave as well as carne picante (thank god for a little spice, finally!!), as well as some awesome caprese empanadas (we think of these as appetizer empanadas).
    • Neighborhood: Recoleta
    • Cuisine: Empanadas
    • Price: ~AR50 for a dozen (empanadas only, no drinks–usually covers us for 2 dinners)
    • Best for: Delivery (dinner)

      La Morada Buenos Aires image

      After much searching, our favorite empanada place in our neighborhood

  • Miranda: We tried this place for lunch soon after arriving in Buenos Aires on the recommendation of a friend (see our full review here) – good decision!  Every time we’ve gone, this place has been packed with businessmen and trendy Palermo Hollywood-goers (you know, the ones who leave their sunglasses on indoors).  The set lunch options here include an appetizer (try the chorizo or polenta), a main dish (we especially like the lomo sandwich and chicken kebab with tower of grilled vegetables) and drinks (includes house wine- yay!!).  That’s a LOT of really good food for not that much.  We’re guessing dinner’s pretty good too, but we’ve never been since the lunch option is such a good deal.
    • Neighborhood: Palermo Hollywood
    • Cuisine: Parrilla
    • Price: ~AR90 (lunch with wine)
    • Best for: Lunch, dinner

      Miranda parrilla Buenos Aires entrance image

      Only go here if you're hungry and you like meat

  • La Fabrica del Taco: Having come from California, we’re used to Mexican food being plentiful and cheap, and thus ate it around once a week before we came to South America.  Turns out, Mexican is hard to come by here, but this place makes some awesome (and pretty authentic) tacos, as well as good guac and pico de gallo (try saying that with a Buenos Aires accent and not laughing).  Margaritas are expensive (like most mixed drinks in Argentina), so we usually stick with beer or sodas here.  When we get that craving for good Mexican and food with a little heat, this is where we go.  Just be prepared for the kind of creepy collection of Mexican wrestling masks covering the walls . . .
    • Neighborhood: Palermo Soho
    • Cuisine: Mexican
    • Price: ~AR120 (AR12-15/taco, 1-2 should fill you up)
    • Best for: Lunch, dinner

      La Fabrica del Taco Buenos Aires Palermo image

      Just wait until you get inside . . .

  • Cluny: This is our fancy place where we go when we want to pretend like we can still afford the dinners we used to buy when we had paychecks.  It’s a beautiful, elegant space with fabulous service – we’ve been lucky enough to have the same server, Marcelo (and ironically, the same table) every time we’ve been.  It’s been described as “modern Argentine” as well as French, but we just call it delicious.  After trying a number of different things on the menu, our absolute favorite is the mushroom risotto topped with a incredibly flavorful hunk of lamb – best we’ve had anywhere, not just in Argentina.  Extensive (and somewhat expensive) wine list.  Great for a special evening out.
    • Neighborhood: Palermo Soho
    • Cuisine: French/Argentine
    • Price: ~AR300 (includes ~AR100 bottle of wine)
    • Best for: Dinner

      Cluny restaurant Buenos Aires image

      You can sit on the couches, or they have regular tables and a loft upstairs

  • La Salamandra: This is one of our favorite cafes, located in Palermo Soho.  The company is actually a producer of high-end dulce de leche that they sell in their cafe as well as in grocery stores throughout the country – it’s good.  They also make their own fresh mozzarella and use it in lots of their dishes – stuff like grilled vegetable salad, foccacia sandwiches and fresh quiches, definitely not your standard Argentine fare.  And if you order a coffee, they serve it with a ceramic spoon full of their dulce de leche!!
    • Neighborhood: Palermo Soho
    • Cuisine: Cafe, sandwiches, salads
    • Price: AR80 (no alcohol)
    • Best for: Brunch, lunch

      La Salamandra Buenos Aires image

      Be sure to order a coffee after lunch so you can try their fabulous dulce de leche

  • Lo de Mateo: This is another neighborhood parrilla that we stumbled across one afternoon while wandering around Recoleta.  We’ve been for both lunch and dinner, pasta and carne, and our favorite is the pasta lunch menu.  They have an awesome scarparo sauce – a red sauce with various types of onions, a touch of cream and then a bit of pesto in the middle – great with their stuffed pastas.  And the lunch menu includes dessert – their flan is my favorite.
    • Neighborhood: Recoleta/Palermo Viejo (it’s right on the line)
    • Cuisine: Pasta and parrilla
    • Price: AR80 (lunch, no alcohol)
  • Best for: Lunch, dinner
    Lo de Mateo image

    Nothing too fancy, just really good pastas and flan!!

    Any other favorites out there??

Bad experience with a local guide in Salta

Well, we’re back in Buenos Aires after a week in the Northwest of Argentina (Salta and Jujuy provinces).  Jen is working on a post that will give a full overview of our trip with pictures and so forth, so we should get that up in the next day or so.  In the mean time, my priority has been writing a strongly worded post for Trip Advisor regarding the unpleasant experience we had with a guide named Angie that we contracted with in Salta in an effort to help save others from going through what we went through.

To keep you up to date on what we’ve been up to and to provide you with a strong warning in the event that you find yourself planning a trip to Salta you should definitely check out the post along with whatever responses may come from it here at Trip Advisor.  Below is my original post if you’d rather read it here:

——————

Title: Different point of view on popular Salta Guide

My wife and I just spent a week in Salta/Jujuy during which we used Angie’s (also known as Giena on Trip Advisor) services as a private guide for the first 3 days. We were extremely disappointed with the quality of her service, her incredible prices and her attitude towards customer service in general. I recognize that she is quite popular here on TA and receives volumes of positive feedback (which is how we found her to begin with), but after our experience with her, I have trouble understanding all of the praise and think it’s very important that TA has a post representing an alternative viewpoint so that other people have a more balanced idea of what Angie offers–had there been a post like this, we would likely have planned differently and had a much better trip. For context, we’re from the US and have been living in BsAs for the last 2.5 months; in that time we’ve developed a good understanding of pricing/cost of living in BsAs (this will be important when I discuss Angie’s pricing).

We hired Angie because of the great things we had read on TA. Unfortunately, due to a series of vague emails, we misunderstood her pricing to be US$250 for 5 days, when in reality it was US$250 PER DAY. We take partial responsibility for not having reconfirmed the total price, but after re-reading the email chain several times, there is definitely room for misinterpretation – Angie never stated it was a per day price nor did she provide a total price for the trip. Further, given our reference points for pricing in BsAs, it would never have ocurred to us that she could possibly charge US$250/day–I’ll get into that more in a bit. Had Angie not handled the misunderstanding so poorly, I would not be taking the time to write this detailed post–as it is, she left us feeling cheated and extremely unhappy.

In the end, we paid her US$500, which we feel was far more than she was worth. What did we get for our US$500? Here is what Angie did for us:

Day 1: 10am-3pm =~5 hours of time together including lunch (~3.5 hours of driving)

Angie picked us up at 10am and drove us to Cafayate with a couple of photo stops at well marked locations right along the side of the main road (e.g., Garganta del Diablo). We arrived in Cafayate at ~1pm and had lunch with Angie at her favorite restaurant in town. Then she dropped us off at our hotel at 3pm or so, and we didn’t see her again until the next morning.

Day 2: 10am-12pm ~2 hours of time together

We weren’t planning to see Angie on Day 2 (assuming that we weren’t paying for her) as we had told her we were planning to explore Cafayate by ourselves, but she told us she’d pick us up at 10am and take us to a couple of wineries so we reluctantly agreed.

She picked us up at 10am, took us to the goat cheese farm and then 2 wineries (each obvious tourist destinations). At each of these 3 venues she handed us off for the standard tour and waited until we were done. My wife had talked to her 2 days previously about setting up a lunch at the last winery and assumed this had been arranged. However, on the way there Angie pulled off the road, called the winery and then told us we couldn’t have lunch there because we didn’t book it the day before (I guess that was our job?). After the 2nd winery she dropped us off in town at ~12:00pm. The only other time we saw her that day was when she picked us up at our hotel and dropped us off at a restaurant for dinner (~10 min).

Day 3: 10am-2:00pm ~4 hours of time together (all driving)

She picked us up at 10am and we drove directly back to Salta on the same road we came down on with 2 stops at different photo spots. At this point, we still didn’t have a hotel booked for Friday night, and rather than helping us book something she just told us to let her know if we had trouble finding something. When we got back to Salta and she asked us for some money in advance is when we first realized that there was a significant misunderstanding over her pricing and that it was actually 4x higher than we had thought. US$250 per day was way beyond what we wanted to pay, so after talking it over that afternoon we told her that we could no longer work with her.

In summary, Angie spent maybe 11-12 hours with us over 3 days, primarily as a very highly paid taxi driver. She booked only one hotel for us (which was mediocre), she recommended a few restaurants in Salta (which were not particularly good and literally had large tour buses waiting out front as their tour groups dined there) and a couple of restaurants in Cafayate–one of which was good (though easily findable on the main square), the other was not. And for that, she demanded that we pay her US$500 despite the mixup what was at least partly her fault (according to her this was a great deal and we were ‘ridiculous’ to have thought she charged less); she had wanted US$1000 for 5 “days” (and yes, 2-4 hours of driving counts as a day according to her). Keep in mind, these prices do not include food, hotels or any activities for you and that Angie told us several times that she never has to pay in restaurants or hotels when on tours, so I’d think her only real cost is her car and fuel.

Also, despite other posters with very positive comments about learning about the history of the region and other local-type info from Angie, we did not have this experience with her at all–her favorite topic of conversation was how much better off we would be if we switched to her preferred hotel in Cafayate (this awkwardly came up at least 6 times, leading us to wonder why it was so important to her). In general, we do not feel that we saw, heard, did, or learned anything in our time with Angie that we couldn’t have easily experienced on our own. We ultimately paid her what she demanded; we probably shouldn’t have.

Aside from the mixup we had, we genuinely feel that US$250/day is an outrageous price for these services, even if they were great. After living in Buenos Aires for 2.5 months, here is some context on what you can get for US$1000 in the capital (which should be significantly more expensive than the provinces):

-1 month rent in a nicely furnished apartment in Recoleta or Palermo with all utilities included plus weekly maid service (we pay $1200/month for a massive and luxurious place)

-15+ fantastic dinners for 2 at the very nicest restaurants in BsAs with great wine/steak/etc.

-6 weeks of 20 hours/week Spanish school at one of the best schools (or ~70 hours of private instruction from a highly qualified teacher)

-1500+ empanadas (seriously)

-80 bottles of very good Argentine wine purchased in Salta (or 150 bottles of the exact same wine if you buy it in BsAs–Salta is much more expensive even for the local wines, not sure why)

-For AR$600 = ~US$155 for the 2 of us, we spent a full day (9am-7pm) in Tigre with 2 wonderful guides that spoke perfect English, gave us lunch, took us kayaking for 3.5 hours way off the beaten path and then served us an incredible asado with 4+ courses of meats. It was an all-day event, we saw and did things we couldn’t have possibly done on our own, we learned tons of things about Argentine culture and the Tigre Delta, it came with great food and it was reasonably priced. Again, BsAs/Tigre should be more expensive than Salta.

For some further context on how much an income of US$250/day is in Argentina, we’ve heard from many friends in BsAs that a high paying job in the capital (e.g., computer engineer) will pay ~AR$8000/month, which is ~US$100/day for 8+ hour days.

To be fair, I don’t know if Angie’s prices are especially high or if they are normal for private guides in Salta. Either way, for US$250 per day, I would expect MUCH, MUCH more for my money, so my first recommendation would be to do it without a guide as visiting the NW is really quite straight-forward (e.g., pretty much everything is on the main road and well marked). If for some reason you feel like you’d like to have a guide, I would shop around and be very explicit about what your expectations are (e.g., I want to see things off the beaten path and experience things beyond what the tour buses do, etc.). If your highly-paid private guide is taking you to the same places the large tour buses go, you’re better off without them.

For the last 2 days of our trip, we rented a nice car from a company with fluent English speakers (Alamo), saw everything that we would have seen otherwise, enjoyed the freedom of exploring on our own, and spent far less than half of what it would have cost to continue with Angie. This took less than 2 hours of planning/setup and could have been done even more cheaply with some advance planning.

Sorry to be so negative, wish things hadn’t gone this way. Obviously many other people have enjoyed their experiences with Angie, so possibly this is a one-off, but I think an important data point for people to consider in planning their trips. Let me know if you have questions either through the forum or through PM and I’ll be happy to provide more detail.

Ryan

Our first tango show (and lessons!)

To mark our one-week anniversary as porteños, we decided to get our first exposure to the sensual dance that started right here in Buenos Aires – tango.  Our language school recommended Complejo Tango (which offers an evening of “lessons”, dinner and a show for ~US$60/person), so we got all dressed up and headed out across town to the theater.  We were a bit surprised to arrive right on time for the lessons and find only 4 other people there. The room slowly filled up as the buses sent to pick up tourists from all the hotels in town arrived, and we started half an hour late (not bad for Latin America!).  We quickly learned one basic step and then practiced while trying not to step on the toes of all the other tourists crammed into the tiny dance studio.  While we’re hardly pros now, it was fun to get a taste of what dancing the tango might be like, and we’re hoping to try out real lessons once we get settled into a routine here.

We were highly skeptical of the food that would be served in a small theater prior to the show, but we were pleasantly surprised.  As we’ve noted in previous posts, our food experience has been somewhat hit-or-miss so far.  But this easily ranked in the top half of dinners we’ve had thus far- and the endless wine helped too!  The show was entertaining – walked the audience through the evolution of tango over the last century, using different costumes for each period.  The live band was a nice touch, and while we heard a bit too much from the lounge singer between dances, the dancers were incredible and solidified our resolve to learn to tango while we’re here.

Argentine tango dancers image

Argentine tango involves dramatic costumes and a lot of leg

While this definitely had the potential to be a cheezy tourist trap, all in all it was a fun introduction to tango and a good evening out.  Next, it’s off to the milongas!